I spoke with Roland Deines today (of Nottingham). He makes the argument that Israel in this period had around 4 million.
Doing the math based on the catalog of Tal Ilan on the names over three centuries, he suggests that we have a Jesus, son of Joseph about 1 out of every 740 ossuaries. That means 3,034 ossuaries with that name, based on how many ossuaries we now have (900+) and the names we have already with Joseph and Jesus link (3) and moving up to 4 million. This works, if the basic ratio of names we have is correct. This is where his comment stopped.
However, I went on. Add Mary (1 of 5), then 670 have this combination. 2 Maries is 114, Add another Joseph (Jose), that is 10. This numbers are generous because ALL the other factors would also have to be in play. I think this works, but I am not a statistician. Feel free to give me feedback on this one.
Why use anything but the small sampling of tombs uncovered that we have? It is equally incredible that there was this grouping found at all within such a small sampleing. What about more like Mary being attributed to Jesus instead of one of the others such as Mathew ..not just the grouping? The fact she was not a sister due to DNA. etc. We need to keep it real rather than make it fit what we want.. Please send me an email? I would love to have some help. It seems we are sugar coating these high improbabilities. Help?
Please take this into account on stats as well..
We see another dismissal of Mary Mara being dissed as trhough it could contain as it was common place; two women in one ossuary. It would make sense that Mary and Martha would have been placed in the same ossuaries as they were sisters. Remember the sister cleaned to prepare for Jesus? Jesus said that the one who spent time with him was doing the better. These were maybe the two sisters Mary and Martha in one ossuary. Now the stats need to configure yet another into the crazy stats. Help?
Please take this into account on stats as well..
We see another dismissal of Mary Mara being dissed as trhough it could contain as it was common place; two women in one ossuary. It would make sense that Mary and Martha would have been placed in the same ossuaries as they were sisters. Remember the sister cleaned to prepare for Jesus? Jesus said that the one who spent time with him was doing the better. These were maybe the two sisters Mary and Martha in one ossuary. Now the stats need to configure yet another into the crazy stats. A child attributing the one of only two women in the tomb regardless of the name is relevant considering she could have been attributed to anyone at all in that tomb and is another what are the chances stat.Do you think they thought by what they said that they meant that he will come back right then or to keep looking up because no one knows the day or the hour? The age seems just right. 30 -70 ad. is when Jesus died; the rest to follow. Given 1000 years or so ossuaries and tombs in that area were used i.e.600 bc. to 300 ad.; the timeframe matches great they all died at that time. The timeframe chances are 1 in 10 wich is ten times the chances to add. I really thank you and hope for a great book. It will be better to have all the possible arguments to refute before they arise. The other is that if Jesus was the first to die and they moved His bones they would have had a smaller more insignificant ossuary; his was smaller and plain. I am a Christian and if no answers am leaning on Him orchestrating this fing to separate..spew the lukewarm out of his mouth in the last days?? Below is an eail I answered with to some friends regarding stats that you have not received. Thanks again.. Jeff Wallen
I get so twisted up by stats.. Even the dating is the right time 30 ad to 80 ad. out of 1000 years of possibilities. My thought was what are the chances? 600 to 1..w/Mary attributed to Jesus..6000 to 1 then w/ Jesus ossuary diff from the others 60000 to 1 then the dating 6000000 to 1.. The name grouping is out of a small sampleing.. I hope we can come up with some stuff. I thought at first Smuggling Jesus body in but then Judah son of Jesus threw me off. I think maybe God may have had inspired another middle class family to name their kids names what they were for that grouping. God sent a deceptive spirit before. Weeding out the luke warm in the last days? Rob said that that partained to another people group though way back then. I hit a breaking point yesterday. I cried all day. I have a lot to live for but my sandy foundation needs hardening.
I just have such a hard time with the chances. It also seems that our side is using things like location and class to justify the improbability rather than looking for the high improbabilities..like what are the chances that could of happened, etc.? Then lowering statistics based on their own assumptions. I do believe in God and that there is a plan. I have a friend that is going to do a study with me to help strengthen my foundation. Maybe this tomb or cave..was brought into light 25 years later as it were; right after the Divinci Code as God allowed according to a greater plan. HE God may have enabled a family or ? or allowed Satan to deceive people as part of His greater plan. Sin existed prior to the earth being formed. Satan became full of Himself which God had to enable as he enabled eve to fall from perfection to selfishness. Crazy? I just think way too much. It is so hard for me to brush over and ignore statistics and facts.Add in what ever book is written on the issue? Hopefully there are
> answers.. Given these stats as well as the fact Jesus was next to Mary
> as if a couple and not others it looks bleak! The only evaluation is
> that Jesus may not have been able to afford the tomb but what if it were
> away from the others , in a cave and hidden, also factor the fact that
> Jesus and not the others were not next to Mary as if married.Also the
> fact that Jesus was handy and may have made the ossuraries as He was a
> carpenter? Wall Maker..How does this change the slim chances of that
> tomb and it's names existing?
Dr. Bock,
I previously posted this on your February 24/25 listing on March 10 and did not receive a response from you or see the blog posted on your site. With me being new to "blogging" I felt I am probably doing something wrong so here it is again in one of your more recent pages. What is the correct way to blog?
As one of your former students and a graduate of DTS with an MABS, currently working to complete the M.Div. Equivalency for entrance into the D.Min program, I still consider myself a "young puppy" scholar "cutting prudent theological teeth." I have a lot of respect for you, your work, and admire your refrain in the Ted Koppel interview with Simcha Jacobovici, you and others on the Discovery Channel Docudrama "post-mortem."
I found it interesting that even the scientific community represented on the show dispelled Simcha's work in uncovering Jesus’ alleged tomb (e.g., archeological methods, hypothesis, forensic evidence, etc.), calling it "Archeological porn" viewed from a Hollywood intellectual model.
In contrast to the scientific experts, the theological representatives refrained from Ad Hominine attacks and attempted to establish opportunities for dialogue. You did a good job of pointing out the film maker's lack of understanding concerning what Christians believe about the resurrection and reinforcing the Christian position as one of faith. However, I felt the discussion lacked validation for why we believe what we believe. All of the theological representatives referenced that history dictates otherwise concerning Jesus' record about the resurrection than that of James Cameron's film (e.g., Christian view is Jesus' resurrection was bones and all, etc., not just a spiritual ascension), but no data was given to support the Christian view of the resurrection, only verbal positions were emphasized. With anticipation, I patiently waited for you to send in your F-16's and M-1 tanks to destroy their scud missiles; but instead, you chose only to fire "B-B's."
In the NT104 New Testament Exegesis DTS course (I have enjoyed the book you and Fanning edited, "Interpreting the New Testament Text"), we perform laborious word studies, validations, exegetical papers, etc., and like a skilled surgeon, carefully evaluate all the source materials and theological views, textual criticism, and deal with issues such as validating whether or not the dividing wall in Ephesians was metaphorical or the actual wall that divided the Jewish court from the Gentile court (you know the routine), we don't just say from silence what we believe, but validate what we believe with source materials.
In any event, this statement sounds harsher than I intend and maybe I am alone in my critique, but I walked away from your discussion without any validation from extra-biblical or biblical record about our Christian eschatology and why any of you could dispute Simcha Jacobovici’s claim that he may have the authentic tomb of Jesus Christ, Mary Magdalene, and their alleged son. You only stated your opinions but did not validate source data concerning why you held to those positions. I suspect Simcha and his colleague walked away feeling the same way. One caveat, I was "flipping the channels" and did not see the first part of your discussion so I may have missed something. What I was hoping for was not "the Bible says..." that is not what I mean. Opponents and the film maker would have accused you as Bible thumpers. Perhaps you could have said, "John says, Romans says, Matthew says, Josephus says," and directed the film makers attention to some of the NT post resurrection witnesses who recorded seeing Jesus in the flesh in Matt 28:1-20; Mark 16:1-14; Luke 24:1-53; John 20:1-31; John 21:12-13 (he ate bread and fish) and Acts 2:29-36; 13:29-37.
You did well to illustrate that Jesus' resurrection was "bones, flesh, and all" and not a Gnostic one like the North Carolina professor tried to claim the "theological people he knows" teach about what Paul says about the resurrection. However, again, except for word usage by Paul, there was little reference to the biblical data by you to validate your position. As you are more aware and astute than I, there is extra-biblical historical evidence concerning Jesus' tomb and the Jewish and Roman authorities’ attempts to defame the truth about the resurrection. The authorities had sufficient political muscle and the military means necessary to locate Jesus' body within the community had it not been raised from the dead. The late first century Jewish historian, Josephus, pointed out that despite all of this influence and power, Jesus' body was never found by the Jewish or Gentile authorities. He also confirmed that many of Jesus' disciples saw him alive, raised from the dead as was predicted thousands of years before by the OT prophets (cf., Antiquities 18.3.3). When the gentlemen seated next to you mentioned, "this is not the first time, the second time, the third time," etc.; concerning Hollywood’s attempts and secular societies attempts to falsely overshadow historical fact about the resurrection, it would have been nice for one of you to have referenced source materials to validate to the unschooled audience what some of those past Anti-Christian attempts and efforts were in respect to the Christian view of the resurrection.
The following summary is by no means a critique of the film (yet I intend to write one in the future) but I do agree with you that James' and Simcha's film has too many "ifs" in the Docudrama for any of the hypothesis to be explicitly validated. Though the film maker's raised interesting questions, it is disturbing that some of the sources they base evidence upon claim their analysis or statements were taken out of context by the film makers. Perhaps their film is more about making money and trying to establish a romantic connection between Dan Brown's book, "The DaVinci Code," and the views of the "secret society" to support a view that Jesus was married to Mary Magdalene and had a son, rather than the unbiased analysis they proclaim to hold. Contrary to the film, we can know based on the NT biblical data, that Jesus' flesh and bones are in heaven and not currently existent on the earth, and that believers will receive a glorified body one day (cf. Ps 2:7; Luke 24:39; Acts 13:34; Rom 8:23; 1 Cor 15:42-44; 2 Cor 5:1-5; Heb 9:24).
Again, I hope I didn't sound critical, I respect you (as most of the theological community does) as one the brightest scholars of our time and thank you for your willingness to take a stand on national TV for the faith. Just desire to see the type of responses and evidence as presented in your responses to the blogs, come out during your discussions to similar issues on national TV rather than reserving yourself. So, please do not deduct any extra points off a future paper should I take additional courses from you in future DTS work :0) I am proud of you and wish TV would allow more conservative scholars from the Christian faith an opinion in such issues. In the past, they have primarily weighted biblical expertise from liberalism so it is good to see you up on the stage in the good fight for the sake of the Gospel.
Shalom,
David Brown.
No need to be upset, There is nothing to this, as the many posts and as the response of all kinds of experts has shown.
Darrell, thanks for those interesting population stats you shared earlier today!
I am happy to report that Discovery Channel has made one of the three changes (that I had discussed with Dr. Feuerverger) to their website.
Note that the following paragraph from the 'Tomb Evidence' PDF file (http://dsc.discovery.com/convergence/tomb/explore/media/tomb_evidence.pdf) :
"Taking into account the chances that these names would be clustered together in a family tomb, this statistical study concludes that the odds – on the most conservative basis – are 600 to 1 in favor of this being the JESUS FAMILY TOMB. A statistical probability of 600 to 1 means that this conclusion works 599 times out of 600."
has now been changed to
"Taking into account the chances that these names would be clustered together in a family tomb, this statistical study concludes that the probability under random chance of observing a cluster of names as compelling as this one within the given population parameters is 600 to 1, meaning that this conclusion works 599 times out of 600."
I believe that this is an acknowledgement that the computed 600:1 odds really have no direct bearing to whether or not this is the family tomb of Jesus. It is very disappointing to note that Discovery is using a misleading play on words even in this "corrected" version. Notice that they are using the statistical term "population" (in this case the NAMEs on the inscribed ossuaries in the roughly 1,100 family tombs) in a manner that the majority of readers will interpret as the "Jews who were living in the area at the time". There is a big difference! The odds would be much less with that latter interpretation!
While I am clearly happy that a change has been made - at least we are moving in the right direction - there are two other paragraphs (below) that are still not corrected, and I have e-mailed Dr. Feuerverger again inquiring why these were not changed. I hope that this will be the beginning of many changes that Discovery will make to correct inaccurate statements on their site. Inaccuracies don't make for good and healthy debates!
"Dr. Andrey Feuerverger, professor of statistics & mathematics at the University of toronto, has concluded a high statistical probability that the Talpiot tomb is the JESUS FAMILY TOMB."
AND
"A statistical study commissioned by the broadcasters (Discovery Channel/Vision Canada/C4 UK) concludes that the probability factor is 600 to 1 in favor of this tomb being the tomb of Jesus of Nazareth and his family."
I am happy to report that Discovery Channel has now removed ALL claims on its website that the 600:1 odds have any specific bearing to the "Lost Tomb" being that of the Jesus family.
You may recall that I had engaged in a discussion with Dr. Andrey Feuerverger (the show's in-house statistician), and he and I agreed that Discovery's original interpretation of the 600:1 odds on its site was statistically incorrect and highly misleading to the public. For your benefit, I am reproducing below the original wording and the new wording of three changed paragraphs. Note that all references to the Jesus tomb have been removed! Thanks again to Andrey and also to Discovery Channel for making these changes happen!
Now that Discovery Channel has backed away from its 600:1 odds claim (which was the bedrock of its case!) that this was the Jesus family tomb, one cannot but wonder what this show had to do with Jesus in the first place. With these changes, the show, in essence, has now dwindled to a documentary on a "surprising cluster of names"!
Joe
======================================================================
Change 1:
"Dr. Andrey Feuerverger, professor of statistics & mathematics at the University of toronto, has concluded a high statistical probability that the Talpiot tomb is the JESUS FAMILY TOMB."
changed to
"Dr. Andrey Feuerverger, professor of statistics at the University of Toronto, has concluded (subject to the stated historical assumptions) that it is unlikely that an equally â€surprising†cluster of names would have arisen by chance under purely random sampling."
===========
Change 2:
"Taking into account the chances that these names would be clustered together in a family tomb, this statistical study concludes that the odds – on the most conservative basis – are 600 to 1 in favor of this being the JESUS FAMILY TOMB. A statistical probability of 600 to 1 means that this conclusion works 599 times out of 600."
changed to
"Taking into account the chances that these names would be clustered together in a family tomb, this statistical study concludes that the probability under random chance of observing a cluster of names as compelling as this one within the given population parameters is 600 to 1, meaning that this conclusion works 599 times out of 600."
===========
Change 3:
"A statistical study commissioned by the broadcasters (Discovery Channel/Vision Canada/C4 UK) concludes that the probability factor is 600 to 1 in favor of this tomb being the tomb of Jesus of Nazareth and his family."
changed to
"A statistical study commissioned by the broadcasters (Discovery Channel/Vision Canada/C4 UK) concludes that the probability factor is in the order of 600 to 1 that an equally "surprising" cluster of names would arise purely by chance under given assumptions."
Let me get this straight- the 600:1 odds claim says that there would be one ossuary with this combination of names out of every 600 randomly selected? There are thousands of ossuaries from this time period, so even this claim implies that there are likely multiple such ossuaries with the same names. Is the documentary's claim really THAT flimsy?
Mary and Mary mother of James (Martha) were the first ones on the scene.. They were the first ones on the scene noticing the body was gone and telling others.
What if the Mary ossuaries contained the bones of these two women and and her Son James. It may be more plausable. Now this Jesus and son may have been a hoax by the Jews in that day to discredit His resurrection then and the ones who found Him. Placed in open display in Jerusalem for all to see or just another jesus she married. ? Did those two Mary's live in Jerusalem? Is that not who Jesus was close to in that day? He was a house guest at one time, etc.? That does beg a question to be refuted that what if the ones who found the tomb to be empty Mary and Mary mother of James stole the body when the guards were asleep and the guards may have left the stone rolled away and did not tell anyone for fear for their lives. Just one to refute. I am holding on to the faith side but want all possibilities exposed. This one is huge. Thanks for forwarding this one on.
Also the name grouping seems big as the cluster. Not the common names but the cluster. It could be a part of a bigger plan?
JNJ:
I am going to ask you not to post just lists of what can only be called speculations. This does not really help anyone. The issue of the cluster of names is being dealt with in detail here on the site.
Thanks Ron. I can only blog there which I have. I spiratically threw a bunch of thought and theory in that the Christian side is not looking at it seems. If you see what I have stated it is what others are going to cry foul over. I am spending a lot on P3 and have seen many miracles; Which is why I can not throw away my faith on this issue. However given the unlikelyhood I suspect either sabatage in the past or God's plan by He or what he allowed because of a greater purpose. They would have never made the movie without the tie to the Divinci Code, this Jesus having a son, and being linked to this Mary. This could filter a lot of complacent and potentially faithless lukewarm christians in the last days. It will have a tremendous impact. See my brainstorms below and make sense if you can. I asked Ted to ask you about many things you brought up such as Gods Spirit pored on all flesh as well as others being attributed to the day of Pentecost; that if looking at the original greek much of this has already happened? Just curious..
Read below. It was written badly and was a bunch of thoughts and emails grouped together. I did not want to re hash to make it flow better; forgive me.. I want to re adjust my focus as you mentioned.. Although you mentioned that Man places wording as they see it at times; God saying He wished He never would have created us? That is still stating God made a mistake and could be blasphemy??
Wasn't Mary Magdalene the one Jesus loved? Is she the one they said he fathered a child with? She and Mary mother of James were servants? They may have all received ossuaries. Some may insinuate that she fathered a child with Jesus and ended up with ossuaries in that family tomb of her master who may have been the mother of James..Not Jesus brother. That Jesus ossuary was different because He died first. Many may say this because they were the first to discover the missing body. Shown in Mark. We should refute all ideas and theories before they begin to prepare. This stuff will screw up a lot of people and need to be prepared to give an answer to all their questions.. I will not spend much more time on this and dive in to other stuff.
Monday, March 12, 2007
Statistics left out..Need to discredit all claim potential!
Please take this into account on stats as well.. We see another dismissal of Mary Mara being dissed as through it could contain as it was common place; two women in one ossuary. It would make sense that Mary and Martha would have been placed in the same ossuaries as they were sisters. Remember the sister cleaned to prepare for Jesus? Jesus said that the one who spent time with him was doing the better. These were maybe the two sisters Mary and Martha in one ossuary. Now the stats need to configure yet another into the crazy stats. A child attributing the one of only two women in the tomb regardless of the name is relevant considering she could have been attributed to anyone at all in that tomb and is another what are the chances stat.Do you think they thought by what they said that they meant that he will come back right then or to keep looking up because no one knows the day or the hour? The age seems just right. 30 -70 ad. is when Jesus died; the rest to follow. Given 1000 years or so ossuaries and tombs in that area were used i.e.600 bc. to 300 ad.; the timeframe matches great they all died at that time. The timeframe chances are 1 in 10 wich is ten times the chances to add. I really thank you and hope for a great book. It will be better to have all the possible arguments to refute before they arise. The other is that if Jesus was the first to die and they moved His bones they would have had a smaller more insignificant ossuary; his was smaller and plain. I am a Christian and if no answers am leaning on Him orchestrating this fing to separate..spew the lukewarm out of his mouth in the last days?? Below is an eail I answered with to some friends regarding stats that you have not received. Thanks again.. Jeff WallenI get so twisted up by stats.. Even the dating is the right time 30 ad to 80 ad. out of 1000 years of possibilities. My thought was what are the chances? 600 to 1..w/Mary attributed to Jesus..6000 to 1 then w/ Jesus ossuary diff from the others 60000 to 1 then the dating 6000000 to 1.. The name grouping is out of a small sampleing.. I hope we can come up with some stuff. I thought at first Smuggling Jesus body in but then Judah son of Jesus threw me off. I think maybe God may have had inspired another middle class family to name their kids names what they were for that grouping. God sent a deceptive spirit before. Weeding out the luke warm in the last days? Rob said that that partained to another people group though way back then. I hit a breaking point yesterday. I cried all day. I have a lot to live for but my sandy foundation needs hardening.I just have such a hard time with the chances. It also seems that our side is using things like location and class to justify the improbability rather than looking for the high improbabilities..like what are the chances that could of happened, etc.? Then lowering statistics based on their own assumptions. I do believe in God and that there is a plan. I have a friend that is going to do a study with me to help strengthen my foundation. Maybe this tomb or cave..was brought into light 25 years later as it were; right after the Divinci Code as God allowed according to a greater plan. HE God may have enabled a family or ? or allowed Satan to deceive people as part of His greater plan. Sin existed prior to the earth being formed. Satan became full of Himself which God had to enable as he enabled eve to fall from perfection to selfishness. Crazy? I just think way too much. It is so hard for me to brush over and ignore statistics and facts.Add in what ever book is written on the issue? Hopefully there are> answers.. Given these stats as well as the fact Jesus was next to Mary> as if a couple and not others it looks bleak! The only evaluation is> that Jesus may not have been able to afford the tomb but what if it were> away from the others , in a cave and hidden, also factor the fact that> Jesus and not the others were not next to Mary as if married.Also the> fact that Jesus was handy and may have made the ossuraries as He was a> carpenter? Wall Maker..How does this change the slim chances of that> tomb and it's names existing?
JNJ:
A Multiple post. Do not do this, please.
Not Just Judah but Judah son of Jesus as it were in the stats? How many Judah son of Jesus were there? Also I read that if you were not from the area you must inscribe your name as to where you were from..i.e. Jesus of Nazareth. Just another theory to refute..Please? If Mary and Mary mother of James..As in Mark.. found Jesus and was hiding the truth. Mary was poor and a servant right? Could she have had an ossuary made for her true love and placed in her families ossuary? Or if a servant; she was to be placed in her masters ossuary. I know this is a stretch but may come up; we must be prepared right? Mary was local to Jerusalem right? Could this have been orchastrated or counterfitted? Maybe. The timeframe of the tomb seemed perfect out of 1000 years or so the tombs and ossuaries existed.
JNJ:
Remember that before we even get here we have to accept that Jesus was married (for which there is no evidence), that he had children (for which there is no evidence, not even from fringe Christian groups that liked to appeal to other figures who knew Jesus but are not tied to Biblical texts). Surely if Jesus had a son and a line, people would have made much of his descendants and traces of it would show up among those who knew about his family.
Well done, Joe! Keep plugging away.
Thanks Ron. I can only blog there which I have. I spiratically threw a bunch of thought and theory in that the Christian side is not looking at it seems. If you see what I have stated it is what others are going to cry foul over. I am spending a lot on P3 and have seen many miracles; Which is why I can not throw away my faith on this issue. However given the unlikelyhood I suspect either sabatage in the past or God's plan by He or what he allowed because of a greater purpose. They would have never made the movie without the tie to the Divinci Code, this Jesus having a son, and being linked to this Mary. This could filter a lot of complacent and potentially faithless lukewarm christians in the last days. It will have a tremendous impact. See my brainstorms below and make sense if you can. I asked Ted to ask you about many things you brought up such as Gods Spirit pored on all flesh as well as others being attributed to the day of Pentecost; that if looking at the original greek much of this has already happened? Just curious..
Read below. It was written badly and was a bunch of thoughts and emails grouped together. I did not want to re hash to make it flow better; forgive me.. I want to re adjust my focus as you mentioned.. Although you mentioned that Man places wording as they see it at times; God saying He wished He never would have created us? That is still stating God made a mistake and could be blasphemy??
Wasn't Mary Magdalene the one Jesus loved? Is she the one they said he fathered a child with? She and Mary mother of James were servants? They may have all received ossuaries. Some may insinuate that she fathered a child with Jesus and ended up with ossuaries in that family tomb of her master who may have been the mother of James..Not Jesus brother. That Jesus ossuary was different because He died first. Many may say this because they were the first to discover the missing body. Shown in Mark. We should refute all ideas and theories before they begin to prepare. This stuff will screw up a lot of people and need to be prepared to give an answer to all their questions.. I will not spend much more time on this and dive in to other stuff.
Monday, March 12, 2007
Statistics left out..Need to discredit all claim potential!
Please take this into account on stats as well.. We see another dismissal of Mary Mara being dissed as through it could contain as it was common place; two women in one ossuary. It would make sense that Mary and Martha would have been placed in the same ossuaries as they were sisters. Remember the sister cleaned to prepare for Jesus? Jesus said that the one who spent time with him was doing the better. These were maybe the two sisters Mary and Martha in one ossuary. Now the stats need to configure yet another into the crazy stats. A child attributing the one of only two women in the tomb regardless of the name is relevant considering she could have been attributed to anyone at all in that tomb and is another what are the chances stat.Do you think they thought by what they said that they meant that he will come back right then or to keep looking up because no one knows the day or the hour? The age seems just right. 30 -70 ad. is when Jesus died; the rest to follow. Given 1000 years or so ossuaries and tombs in that area were used i.e.600 bc. to 300 ad.; the timeframe matches great they all died at that time. The timeframe chances are 1 in 10 wich is ten times the chances to add. I really thank you and hope for a great book. It will be better to have all the possible arguments to refute before they arise. The other is that if Jesus was the first to die and they moved His bones they would have had a smaller more insignificant ossuary; his was smaller and plain. I am a Christian and if no answers am leaning on Him orchestrating this fing to separate..spew the lukewarm out of his mouth in the last days?? Below is an eail I answered with to some friends regarding stats that you have not received. Thanks again.. Jeff WallenI get so twisted up by stats.. Even the dating is the right time 30 ad to 80 ad. out of 1000 years of possibilities. My thought was what are the chances? 600 to 1..w/Mary attributed to Jesus..6000 to 1 then w/ Jesus ossuary diff from the others 60000 to 1 then the dating 6000000 to 1.. The name grouping is out of a small sampleing.. I hope we can come up with some stuff. I thought at first Smuggling Jesus body in but then Judah son of Jesus threw me off. I think maybe God may have had inspired another middle class family to name their kids names what they were for that grouping. God sent a deceptive spirit before. Weeding out the luke warm in the last days? Rob said that that partained to another people group though way back then. I hit a breaking point yesterday. I cried all day. I have a lot to live for but my sandy foundation needs hardening.I just have such a hard time with the chances. It also seems that our side is using things like location and class to justify the improbability rather than looking for the high improbabilities..like what are the chances that could of happened, etc.? Then lowering statistics based on their own assumptions. I do believe in God and that there is a plan. I have a friend that is going to do a study with me to help strengthen my foundation. Maybe this tomb or cave..was brought into light 25 years later as it were; right after the Divinci Code as God allowed according to a greater plan. HE God may have enabled a family or ? or allowed Satan to deceive people as part of His greater plan. Sin existed prior to the earth being formed. Satan became full of Himself which God had to enable as he enabled eve to fall from perfection to selfishness. Crazy? I just think way too much. It is so hard for me to brush over and ignore statistics and facts.Add in what ever book is written on the issue? Hopefully there are> answers.. Given these stats as well as the fact Jesus was next to Mary> as if a couple and not others it looks bleak! The only evaluation is> that Jesus may not have been able to afford the tomb but what if it were> away from the others , in a cave and hidden, also factor the fact that> Jesus and not the others were not next to Mary as if married.Also the> fact that Jesus was handy and may have made the ossuraries as He was a> carpenter? Wall Maker..How does this change the slim chances of that> tomb and it's names existing?
They did only count Judah.. Not how many Judah son of Jesus
Same with Jesus's not Jesus son of Joseph. In the 600 to one stats it did not even take into acct. the Mary attribution to Jesus. How many Judah son of Jesus. The time era matching perfectly vs. the 1000 years of tombs, nor the different plain looking ossuary as Jesus had vs. the rest. These statistics greatly increase improbability of this grouping. We need to take into the account as christians that this could be Satans deception at a perfect time and God allowing it for a greater purpose; or God sending a deceptive spirit to weed the lukewarm out or make the non Christians hearts harder to prepare for the last days.
JNJ:
A third double post. I am going to ask your posts to be pulled if you do this again.
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